<div dir="ltr">Jay:<div><br></div><div>That is something we need to better establish. I have been discussing these correlations between DDI-CDI, PROV, ODRL, Schema.org and DCAT with various people in the CDIF group (notably Darren Bell and Steve Richard) at different points, and I think we (CDIF) probably need to publish something providing a detailed comparison.</div><div><br></div><div>The work you are doing should help to inform that. Is there any kind of documentation we could use explaining how you have combined Schema.org and DDI-CDI? We are doing this for the CDIF4XAS project, and we just published a mapping document which lays out a little bit how we connect Schema.org variables and DDI-CDI (<a href="https://codata.org/cdif-4-xas-project-first-deliverable-overview-of-x-ray-absorption-spectroscopy-standards/">https://codata.org/cdif-4-xas-project-first-deliverable-overview-of-x-ray-absorption-spectroscopy-standards/</a>). Working with DCAT will require some additional thought, as there is no variable construct in DCAT. </div><div><br></div><div>Steve Richard has also been doing some work with DDI-CDI and ASA data (he provided a sample data set here on the community list a few days ago.) This combines the Schema,org variableMeasured with DDI-CDI variable properties.</div><div><br></div><div>My fear, of course, is that wthout some effort we will not witness all of these great minds thinking alike! ;-)</div><div><br></div><div>Cheers,</div><div><br></div><div>Arofan</div><div><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote gmail_quote_container"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, Oct 24, 2025 at 9:22\u202fAM Jay Greenfield <<a href="mailto:jay@codata.org">jay@codata.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div>Arofan:<div><br></div><div>As you know, with the OHDSI environmental epidemiology platform (OHDSI GIS) we have been using <a href="http://schema.org" target="_blank">schema.org</a> next to DDI-CDI. Using its Action schema, we have been able to create placeholders for RO-Crate and Croissant as extensions of the JSON-LD at multiple levels of granularity.</div><div><br></div><div>In <a href="http://schema.org" target="_blank">schema.org</a> the the DataCalog may be comparable to the DDI-CDI \u201cdatastore\u201d.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Jay<br id="m_-8875219444047862457lineBreakAtBeginningOfMessage">
<div><br><div>On Oct 24, 2025, at 8:54\u202fAM, Arofan Gregory <<a href="mailto:arofan@codata.org" target="_blank">arofan@codata.org</a>> wrote:</div><br><div><div dir="ltr"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 8pt;line-height:115%;font-size:12pt;font-family:Aptos,serif">Donald:</p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 8pt;line-height:115%;font-size:12pt;font-family:Aptos,serif">First, to answer your specific questions, and second to make
some general observations.</p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 8pt;line-height:115%;font-size:12pt;font-family:Aptos,serif"><b>Question 1 (Variable cascade in RDF):</b></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 8pt;line-height:115%;font-size:12pt;font-family:Aptos,serif">There is no reason you should not instantiate the
Represented and Instance Variables as separate objects with their own URIs.
While you might want to collapse these into a simple set of Instance Variables
(which simultaneously act as Represented Variables for ad hoc reuse, and can be
doubly typed) for a one-off publication of a data set, in cases where the data
structure is not reused, in your case the best approach is to have the reusable
variables be clearly identified stand-alone Represented Variables, to which
Instance Variables have a "uses" relationship. They are maintained
separately and have their own identity (and URI).</p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 8pt;line-height:115%;font-size:12pt;font-family:Aptos,serif"><b>Question 2:</b></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 8pt;line-height:115%;font-size:12pt;font-family:Aptos,serif">I will prepare a simple example for you. I will send this
along presently.</p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 8pt;line-height:115%;font-size:12pt;font-family:Aptos,serif"><b>Question 3:</b></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 8pt;line-height:115%;font-size:12pt;font-family:Aptos,serif">I have not yet seen a dual use of DCAT and DDI-CDI, but they
may exist. There is one person - Pascal Heus - who has been doing some
development of Python libraries for DDI-DI and DCAT both, and he may have
examples. I can check for you and tell you at Dagstuhl (he will be attending
the workshop the week before.) The "physical data set" in DDI-CDI is
really the equivalent of a DCAT distribution, and what we describe in DDI-CDI
is the distribution, because this is what we assign access rights to. The
DDI-CDI "data set" is the equivalent of a DCAT one: it has the same
logical contents, but may have differences in structure and format across
different distributions. The DDI-CDI "data store" is a repository of logical
records, which may produce many different data sets. There is no directly
corresponding object in DCAT.<span style="font-size:12pt"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 8pt;line-height:115%;font-size:12pt;font-family:Aptos,serif">Note that in the week prior to the Provenance workshop at
Dagstuhl we will be working with some folks from W3C (including the people from
the group which produced DCAT) to look at how the variable cascade might be
publishable as a W3C recommendation, similar to SOSA/SSN. The model for this
would be DDI-CDI, so the approach you are taking is in line with future
developments.</p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 8pt;line-height:115%;font-size:12pt;font-family:Aptos,serif"><b>General Observations:</b><span style="font-size:12pt"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 8pt;line-height:115%;font-size:12pt;font-family:Aptos,serif">The value of CDIF is that it does not require the use of
domain-specific standards. What you have described is a rich set of
domain-level agreements for data sharing - CDIF in no way is intended to
replace that. The thinking is that if a domain has such a standard, that domain
standard can be mapped into an equivalent CDIF form, and that domain-external
form is used to provide the resources to other adjacent domains or infrastructures.
The CDIF4XAS OSCARS Project is an excellent example of that. Even though they
use Schema.org rather than DCAT, the general mapping approach from their
community standards to CDIF is in line with this vision. We just published the
first (in-progress) stage of that mapping: </p><div style="margin:0in 0in 8pt;line-height:115%;font-size:12pt;font-family:Aptos,serif"> <br></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 8pt;line-height:115%;font-size:12pt;font-family:Aptos,serif">Zenodo: <a href="https://zenodo.org/records/17421917" target="_blank">https://zenodo.org/records/17421917</a></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 8pt;line-height:115%;font-size:12pt;font-family:Aptos,serif">GitHub: <a href="https://github.com/CDIF-4-XAS/XAS-CDIF" target="_blank">https://github.com/CDIF-4-XAS/XAS-CDIF</a></p><div style="margin:0in 0in 8pt;line-height:115%;font-size:12pt;font-family:Aptos,serif"> <br></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 8pt;line-height:115%;font-size:12pt;font-family:Aptos,serif">A lot of what I see in your diagram falls into the category
of "Context" for CDIF. I would ask that you come prepared to use your
use case as an example for the work at Dagstuhl - we have been playing with
PROV and some other standards (I-ADOPT) for describing these sorts of information,
and there were also some interesting explorations done during WorldFAIR in the
Clinical Trials space using Schema.org (<a href="https://zenodo.org/records/7887385" target="_blank">https://zenodo.org/records/7887385</a>).
The XAS project is also running into some of the same requirements for
expressing some of the information about data sources, experiments, etc. This
would be an excellent use case for the coming workshop. </p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 8pt;line-height:115%;font-size:12pt;font-family:Aptos,serif"><br></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 8pt;line-height:115%;font-size:12pt;font-family:Aptos,serif">I look forward to seeing you there and talking more about this.</p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 8pt;line-height:115%;font-size:12pt;font-family:Aptos,serif">Cheers,</p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 8pt;line-height:115%;font-size:12pt;font-family:Aptos,serif">Arofan</p></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, Oct 24, 2025 at 1:53\u202fAM Donald Hobern <<a href="mailto:donald.hobern@adelaide.edu.au" target="_blank">donald.hobern@adelaide.edu.au</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div style="font-family:Aptos,Aptos_EmbeddedFont,Aptos_MSFontService,Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt">
I'm going to follow up here with some more details, which may or may not clarify my issues. Here is the pattern we've been planning to use:</div>
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<ol style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;list-style-type:decimal" start="1">
<li style="font-family:Aptos,Aptos_EmbeddedFont,Aptos_MSFontService,Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt">
<div role="presentation">Assume one of the APPN nodes has a variable it standardly uses in the Study datasets it publishes, something like dry biomass as a miappe:Trait measured in g/m2 as a miappe:Scale.</div>
</li><li style="font-family:Aptos,Aptos_EmbeddedFont,Aptos_MSFontService,Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt">
<div role="presentation">The node publishes a miappe:ObservedVariable on a resolvable IRI that provides the definition, including properties documenting the Trait and Scale - we're developing a pipeline so each node can manage and extend
such a list over time.</div>
</li><li style="font-family:Aptos,Aptos_EmbeddedFont,Aptos_MSFontService,Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt">
<div role="presentation">Each RO-Crate dataset reuses the ObservedVariable instance to document the corresponding column of dry biomass values in the tabular data.</div>
</li><li style="font-family:Aptos,Aptos_EmbeddedFont,Aptos_MSFontService,Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt">
<div role="presentation">The RO-Crate metadata also identifies that these values were produced by a sosa:Observation which references the associated miappe:Method (== sosa:Procedure).</div>
</li></ol>
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<div style="font-family:Aptos,Aptos_EmbeddedFont,Aptos_MSFontService,Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt">
I'd like to understand how much we would need to modify this to benefit from DDI-CDI. I get the impression at very least that the ObservedVariable instance in 2 would need to be a cdi:RepresentedVariable but that the one in 3 would be a cdi:InstanceVariable,
and I feel that means they should have different IRIs - otherwise the combined graph would end up defeating the point of having InstanceVariable at all.</div>
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<div style="font-family:Aptos,Aptos_EmbeddedFont,Aptos_MSFontService,Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt">
Aside from that aspect, and assuming the Trait and Scale are modeled appropriately and the properties linking them to my ObservedVariable are subproperties of CDI ones, would there be more I need to do to benefit from DDI-CDI for cross-dataset and cross-domain
variable interoperability?</div>
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Thanks so much.</div>
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<div style="font-family:Aptos,Aptos_EmbeddedFont,Aptos_MSFontService,Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt">
Donald</div>
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<br>
</div><div style="text-align:left;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);margin:0px;font-family:Aptos,Aptos_EmbeddedFont,Aptos_MSFontService,Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt">
<span style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:8pt;color:rgb(82,138,45)"><b>Donald Hobern</b></span></div><div style="text-align:left;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);margin:0px;font-family:Aptos,Aptos_EmbeddedFont,Aptos_MSFontService,Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt">
<span style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:8pt">Data Management Director, Australian Plant Phenomics Network<b><br>
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