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Thanks, Arofan.</div>
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Much appreciated. This at least gives me some perspective for planning our use of RO-Schema 1.2 so that we are ready for likely future extension in 2.0 to use DCAT concepts.</div>
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Best wishes,</div>
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Donald</div>
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<span style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 8pt; color: rgb(82, 138, 45);"><b>Donald Hobern</b></span><span style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 8pt; color: black;"><br>
Data Management Director, Australian Plant Phenomics Network<b><br>
</b>University of Adelaide - working from Canberra, ACT</span></p>
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<div id="divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" style="font-size:11pt" color="#000000"><b>From:</b> A. G. <ilg21@yahoo.com><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, 14 October 2025 3:16 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Stian Soiland-Reyes <soiland-reyes@manchester.ac.uk>; Peter Winstanley <peter.winstanley@semanticarts.com>; cdif-community@lists.codata.org <cdif-community@lists.codata.org>; Donald Hobern <donald.hobern@adelaide.edu.au><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [cdif-community] Definition of schema:Dataset</font>
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<div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">Donald:</div>
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<div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">The problem with the Schema.org constructis that the definitions are insufficient to support some of the intended target functionalities for CDIF. Specifically, a machine-actionable description of a dataset (without human
intervention) and the assignment of well-defined access conditions. </div>
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<div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">The definition of "dataset" we are tryng to converge on is taken from DCAT. (Access conditions are generally assigned to "distributions" as defined in DCAT. For data description, the DCAT dataset tends to be a better fit.)</div>
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<div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">Schema.org seems to focus mainly on discoverability.</div>
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<div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">I would say that CDIF is tending toward a refined use of the schema:dataset construct. </div>
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<div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">Basically, if CSV (etc.) and current discovery standards were sufficient to ensure interoperability, there would be no need for CDIF guidelines. The problem is too many definitions which are focused only on specific functions.
This means that part oof CDIF's job is to try and align the various definitions.</div>
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<div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">Cheers,</div>
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<div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">Arofan</div>
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<div>On Monday, October 13, 2025 at 06:40:05 AM EDT, Donald Hobern <donald.hobern@adelaide.edu.au> wrote:
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Thanks, Stian.</div>
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I have been participating in Peter Sefton's Australian community calls, but (as we get further with developing our profile) I would be pleased to contribute to the process.</div>
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Best wishes,</div>
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Donald</div>
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<span style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:8pt; color:rgb(82,138,45)"><b>Donald Hobern</b></span><span style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:8pt; color:black"><br clear="none">
Data Management Director, Australian Plant Phenomics Network<b><br clear="none">
</b>University of Adelaide - working from Canberra, ACT</span></p>
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<span style="color:rgb(82,138,45)">APPN acknowledges the Traditional Custodians of Country throughout Australia and their connections to land, sea and community. We pay our respect to their Elders past and present and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and
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The Australian Plant Phenomics Network (APPN) is supported by the Australian Governments National Collaborative Research Infrastructure Strategy (</span><span style="color:rgb(153,159,163)"><a shape="rect" href="https://www.education.gov.au/national-collaborative-research-infrastructure-strategy-ncris" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" style="color:rgb(153,159,163)">NCRIS</a></span><span style="color:black">)<br clear="none">
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<div dir="ltr" id="x_ydp3997acacyiv2530000101divRplyFwdMsg"><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" color="#000000" style="font-size:11pt"><b>From:</b> Stian Soiland-Reyes <soiland-reyes@manchester.ac.uk><br clear="none">
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, 13 October 2025 9:10 PM<br clear="none">
<b>To:</b> Donald Hobern <donald.hobern@adelaide.edu.au>; Peter Winstanley <peter.winstanley@semanticarts.com>; cdif-community@lists.codata.org <cdif-community@lists.codata.org><br clear="none">
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Definition of schema:Dataset</font>
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Thanks, RO-Crate 2 is a longer term programme to revamp our approach and in particular we want to change how we do the specifications themselves, so that they are modular and more formalised, to generate validators and editor forms. There is no current draft
for RO-Crate 2, but we are moving to an RFC-like approach for individual elements of the specification, starting with meta-RFC of how the specification itself should be structured.<br clear="none">
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We suggest RO-Crate 1.2 is the stable release everyone should use (it is also backwards compatible for 1.1-like use), but if you are particularly interested in profile/schema definition side (which I understand can overlap with CDIF activities), or have ideas
for big changes, then feel free to join the RO-Crate community calls to help shape version 2!<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
-- <br clear="none">
Stian Soiland-Reyes, The University of Manchester<br clear="none">
<a shape="rect" href="https://www.esciencelab.org.uk" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://www.esciencelab.org.uk/</a><br clear="none">
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Please note that I may work flexibly whilst it suits me to email now,<br clear="none">
I do not expect a response or action outside of your own working hours.<br clear="none">
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________________________________________<br clear="none">
From: Donald Hobern <donald.hobern@adelaide.edu.au><br clear="none">
Sent: 13 October 2025 10:56<br clear="none">
To: Stian Soiland-Reyes; Peter Winstanley; cdif-community@lists.codata.org<br clear="none">
Subject: Re: Definition of schema:Dataset<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
Thanks, Stian.<br clear="none">
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That's very helpful - is there a timeline for RO-Crate 2?<br clear="none">
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Donald<br clear="none">
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Donald Hobern<br clear="none">
Data Management Director, Australian Plant Phenomics Network<br clear="none">
University of Adelaide - working from Canberra, ACT<br clear="none">
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________________________________<br clear="none">
From: Stian Soiland-Reyes <soiland-reyes@manchester.ac.uk><br clear="none">
Sent: Monday, 13 October 2025 6:58 PM<br clear="none">
To: Peter Winstanley <peter.winstanley@semanticarts.com>; Donald Hobern <donald.hobern@adelaide.edu.au>; cdif-community@lists.codata.org <cdif-community@lists.codata.org><br clear="none">
Subject: Re: Definition of schema:Dataset<br clear="none">
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Hi, we have for RO-Crate 2 planned to lift the requirements of the root to be a Dataset, in particular it may become a Data Catalogue that has many Dataset.<br clear="none">
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Our interpretation of Dataset is slightly broader than DCAT that the Schema.org Dataset is based on. For instance we allow "any file" (and in fact no file if you like, using only "mentions" or external URIs) while they assume a Dataset to be something akin
to a proxy for a single CSV file (the distribution) and alternative formats of the same conceptual dataset. Thus variableMeasured in RO-Crate may seem awkward on the root datset, as you would not know which file they apply to, and we would rather describe
the File (aka MediaObject) directly.<br clear="none">
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Yet Dataset is very applicable because we normally have a root folder. And so we can have a "distribution" to a Zip download for instance, this is very useful when referencing other crates.<br clear="none">
<a shape="rect" href="https://www.researchobject.org/ro-crate/specification/1.2/data-entities#directories-on-the-web-dataset-distributions" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://www.researchobject.org/ro-crate/specification/1.2/data-entities#directories-on-the-web-dataset-distributions</a>
[researchobject.org]<<a shape="rect" href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.researchobject.org/ro-crate/specification/1.2/data-entities*directories-on-the-web-dataset-distributions__;Iw!!PDiH4ENfjr2_Jw!F14mgZ5MY0haeiWjHmL1Mwms_SZrCid9O6F0kLhzm72ecoBkwe-ZrJtX4TXHsPvgMUwB8WKH7LuXCVPt5fDpg4KxIm8iqXA648W16-G8$" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.researchobject.org/ro-crate/specification/1.2/data-entities*directories-on-the-web-dataset-distributions__;Iw!!PDiH4ENfjr2_Jw!F14mgZ5MY0haeiWjHmL1Mwms_SZrCid9O6F0kLhzm72ecoBkwe-ZrJtX4TXHsPvgMUwB8WKH7LuXCVPt5fDpg4KxIm8iqXA648W16-G8$</a>><br clear="none">
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But remember DCAT is about availability firstly so there a Data Catalog is always by reference to each Dataset. RO-Crate would permit nested Dataset so we have one Dataset inside another, one per folder. This may in some cases be another RO-Crate. For that
case currently in 1.2 I would use both types on the upper root Dataset, e.g. in pseudo-JSON<br clear="none">
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@id: ./<br clear="none">
@type: [Dataset, DataCatalogue]<br clear="none">
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This is similar to how we define a Profile Crate as both Dataset and Profile. <a shape="rect" href="https://www.researchobject.org/ro-crate/specification/1.2/profiles.html#profile-crate" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">
https://www.researchobject.org/ro-crate/specification/1.2/profiles.html#profile-crate</a> [researchobject.org]<<a shape="rect" href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.researchobject.org/ro-crate/specification/1.2/profiles.html*profile-crate__;Iw!!PDiH4ENfjr2_Jw!F14mgZ5MY0haeiWjHmL1Mwms_SZrCid9O6F0kLhzm72ecoBkwe-ZrJtX4TXHsPvgMUwB8WKH7LuXCVPt5fDpg4KxIm8iqXA64zsW8Nld$" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.researchobject.org/ro-crate/specification/1.2/profiles.html*profile-crate__;Iw!!PDiH4ENfjr2_Jw!F14mgZ5MY0haeiWjHmL1Mwms_SZrCid9O6F0kLhzm72ecoBkwe-ZrJtX4TXHsPvgMUwB8WKH7LuXCVPt5fDpg4KxIm8iqXA64zsW8Nld$</a>><br clear="none">
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We are also thinking of using Collection for a looser gathering of files that are not in a separate folder, this is used by Workflow Run Crate<br clear="none">
<a shape="rect" href="https://www.researchobject.org/workflow-run-crate/profiles/process_run_crate/#representing-multi-file-objects" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://www.researchobject.org/workflow-run-crate/profiles/process_run_crate/#representing-multi-file-objects</a>
[researchobject.org]<<a shape="rect" href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.researchobject.org/workflow-run-crate/profiles/process_run_crate/*representing-multi-file-objects__;Iw!!PDiH4ENfjr2_Jw!F14mgZ5MY0haeiWjHmL1Mwms_SZrCid9O6F0kLhzm72ecoBkwe-ZrJtX4TXHsPvgMUwB8WKH7LuXCVPt5fDpg4KxIm8iqXA64wXlZ03e$" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.researchobject.org/workflow-run-crate/profiles/process_run_crate/*representing-multi-file-objects__;Iw!!PDiH4ENfjr2_Jw!F14mgZ5MY0haeiWjHmL1Mwms_SZrCid9O6F0kLhzm72ecoBkwe-ZrJtX4TXHsPvgMUwB8WKH7LuXCVPt5fDpg4KxIm8iqXA64wXlZ03e$</a>><br clear="none">
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________________________________<br clear="none">
From: cdif-community <cdif-community-bounces@lists.codata.org> on behalf of Peter Winstanley <peter.winstanley@semanticarts.com><br clear="none">
Sent: Monday, October 13, 2025 8:26:18 AM<br clear="none">
To: Donald Hobern <donald.hobern@adelaide.edu.au>; cdif-community@lists.codata.org <cdif-community@lists.codata.org><br clear="none">
Subject: Re: [cdif-community] Definition of schema:Dataset<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
HI Donald In some respects a dataset is an idea for some managed information under a single curator that needs initially to be identified and then populated - so you'd have an identifier for a datasets and then providing some information about<br clear="none">
HI Donald<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
In some respects a dataset is an idea for some managed information under a single curator that needs initially to be identified and then populated - so you'd have an identifier for a datasets and then providing some information about what it is (going to be)
about - and that might be before you have any 'data' in it.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
The cataloging of datasets starts off with recording the things that you have which are not recorded, but once that is done you need you process to record the description of the data as it is being recorded. So, we can start with dcat:Resource, and then update
that as the resource comes into being (dcat:Dataset, dcat:Distribution, etc)<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
Peter<br clear="none">
________________________________<br clear="none">
From: cdif-community <cdif-community-bounces@lists.codata.org> on behalf of Donald Hobern <donald.hobern@adelaide.edu.au><br clear="none">
Sent: 13 October 2025 08:16<br clear="none">
To: cdif-community@lists.codata.org <cdif-community@lists.codata.org><br clear="none">
Subject: [cdif-community] Definition of schema:Dataset<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
I'd like to check that there is a consistent definition for what we label as a schema:Dataset. Schema.org defined it as "A body of structured information describing some topic(s) of interest" (https://schema.org/Dataset [schema.org]<<a shape="rect" href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://schema.org/Dataset__;!!PDiH4ENfjr2_Jw!H1BbexhqxXZIpx5vz2t7ootw5n7KdXlan0eP558o5JHO1jeOxC-55F30e-DgKlq8ypOZExLt1kFU309T371wHjzghnpJrZgotOhkq-UHAg$" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://schema.org/Dataset__;!!PDiH4ENfjr2_Jw!H1BbexhqxXZIpx5vz2t7ootw5n7KdXlan0eP558o5JHO1jeOxC-55F30e-DgKlq8ypOZExLt1kFU309T371wHjzghnpJrZgotOhkq-UHAg$</a>>).
In line with this, RO-Crate seems to use Dataset as a container for one or more Files via schema:hasPart (e.g.
<a shape="rect" href="https://www.researchobject.org/ro-crate/specification/1.2/introduction.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">
https://www.researchobject.org/ro-crate/specification/1.2/introduction.html</a> [researchobject.org]<<a shape="rect" href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.researchobject.org/ro-crate/specification/1.2/introduction.html__;!!PDiH4ENfjr2_Jw!H1BbexhqxXZIpx5vz2t7ootw5n7KdXlan0eP558o5JHO1jeOxC-55F30e-DgKlq8ypOZExLt1kFU309T371wHjzghnpJrZgotOhk-fpbsg$" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.researchobject.org/ro-crate/specification/1.2/introduction.html__;!!PDiH4ENfjr2_Jw!H1BbexhqxXZIpx5vz2t7ootw5n7KdXlan0eP558o5JHO1jeOxC-55F30e-DgKlq8ypOZExLt1kFU309T371wHjzghnpJrZgotOhk-fpbsg$</a>>).
Science on Schema.org doesn't provide a definition at <a shape="rect" href="https://github.com/ESIPFed/science-on-schema.org/blob/main/guides/Dataset.md" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">
https://github.com/ESIPFed/science-on-schema.org/blob/main/guides/Dataset.md</a> [github.com]<<a shape="rect" href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/ESIPFed/science-on-schema.org/blob/main/guides/Dataset.md__;!!PDiH4ENfjr2_Jw!H1BbexhqxXZIpx5vz2t7ootw5n7KdXlan0eP558o5JHO1jeOxC-55F30e-DgKlq8ypOZExLt1kFU309T371wHjzghnpJrZgotOgQCCCstg$" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/ESIPFed/science-on-schema.org/blob/main/guides/Dataset.md__;!!PDiH4ENfjr2_Jw!H1BbexhqxXZIpx5vz2t7ootw5n7KdXlan0eP558o5JHO1jeOxC-55F30e-DgKlq8ypOZExLt1kFU309T371wHjzghnpJrZgotOgQCCCstg$</a>>,
but my reading is that it expects a Dataset to be a file that contains PropertyValues.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
Based on RO-Crate usage, I've been expecting to use schema:Dataset to describe the set of data, metadata and other files I expect to store together as the RO-Crate. I have also expected to use Dataset to delimit subsets of the RO-Crate that merit describing
as self-contained subunits worth describing separately. This would mean that a simple RO-Crate would be a Dataset and that it would have multiple Files as parts. A more complicated RO-Crate would be a Dataset that has multiple Files and Datasets as parts (with
the nested Datasets themselves having Files as parts). Based on this interpretation, most Datasets have a one-to-one relationship with a Folder.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
Does this align with the expectations of other groups interested in CDIF? In short, is a schema:Dataset 1) a collection of Files representing the results of a study or 2) a File that contains PropertyValues (using e.g. CSV, NetCDF, HDF5, ...)?<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
Thanks,<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
Donald<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
Donald Hobern<br clear="none">
Data Management Director, Australian Plant Phenomics Network<br clear="none">
University of Adelaide - working from Canberra, ACT<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
P (04) 20511471 | plantphenomics.org.au [plantphenomics.org.au]<<a shape="rect" href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.plantphenomics.org.au/__;!!PDiH4ENfjr2_Jw!H1BbexhqxXZIpx5vz2t7ootw5n7KdXlan0eP558o5JHO1jeOxC-55F30e-DgKlq8ypOZExLt1kFU309T371wHjzghnpJrZgotOjwacPD6Q$" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.plantphenomics.org.au/__;!!PDiH4ENfjr2_Jw!H1BbexhqxXZIpx5vz2t7ootw5n7KdXlan0eP558o5JHO1jeOxC-55F30e-DgKlq8ypOZExLt1kFU309T371wHjzghnpJrZgotOjwacPD6Q$</a>>
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[cid:ed0e4064-94e7-4d04-b9ec-02ece5eed479]<br clear="none">
APPN acknowledges the Traditional Custodians of Country throughout Australia and their connections to land, sea and community. We pay our respect to their Elders past and present and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples today.<br clear="none">
The Australian Plant Phenomics Network (APPN) is supported by the Australian Governments National Collaborative Research Infrastructure Strategy (NCRIS [education.gov.au]<<a shape="rect" href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.education.gov.au/national-collaborative-research-infrastructure-strategy-ncris__;!!PDiH4ENfjr2_Jw!H1BbexhqxXZIpx5vz2t7ootw5n7KdXlan0eP558o5JHO1jeOxC-55F30e-DgKlq8ypOZExLt1kFU309T371wHjzghnpJrZgotOjzIJ0sZQ$" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.education.gov.au/national-collaborative-research-infrastructure-strategy-ncris__;!!PDiH4ENfjr2_Jw!H1BbexhqxXZIpx5vz2t7ootw5n7KdXlan0eP558o5JHO1jeOxC-55F30e-DgKlq8ypOZExLt1kFU309T371wHjzghnpJrZgotOjzIJ0sZQ$</a>>)<br clear="none">
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